The Similarity Between Doug Wilson’s Words and Rape in Pornography

70 thoughts on “The Similarity Between Doug Wilson’s Words and Rape in Pornography”

1. First of all, anytime I see trigger warning, I am immediately tempted not to read on – so today I read on with one eye shut.

   Not to be off point, but Wilson falls right into the post from yesterday. I don’t know how many books on marriage, home, family, parenting, his beliefs and his interpretation of Scripture he and his wife have actually written, but they make for good kindling. Wilson is also one of those “women and children first” guys, who really doesn’t mean a word he says. It is once again, all about the male species gaining control and power over the female species and the exercise of the male dominance rights, and all done in the name of God. But God says we are equal, period. Differing roles – but equal. They hide behind this guise of protecting and putting their wives first, but the real truth is, that they are just controlling them and using them for their own personal gain, pleasure and possession. They say that they defend women, but when an abuser denies abusing his wife and children, after being accused by his wife and children, it seems the thing that happens in all these circles, is that once the male denies it, their response is, “he denied it, end of story”.

   This was hard to read through, but excellently written. You are right Wendell, and I personally believe there is more rape activity in the so called “c”hristian bedroom, than we would ever want to know. I also believe that it is covered up by the man’s right to demand sex from his wife, and her duty to comply, as they wrongfully, and to themselves woefully, interpret the Scriptures.

   1. IaMB, The list of Wilson’s and those like him just keeps getting longer. I have learned of so many since finding this blog. I knew they were out there but the number is astounding. It seems the ones that write the most books are the biggest offenders. When you say they are “Women and Children first” guys, you are referrring to they get thrown overboard or tossed into the fire first. Women are seen as having no particular value other than cooking, cleaning, and copulation.

2. Good article. Please provide a link or reference to the original material wherein Wilson wrote or said this. I would rather not google the phrase really.

   1. Ras, I would love to post the original article, but after the firestorm that erupted, the article was taken down from The Gospel Coalition website (where it was published).

      1. Wendell, thank you. Still, a specific reference would be helpful, even if noted as no longer available. And, I believe their are internet archival websites that may be able to supply it. Perhaps one of the readers here knows the details of these services.

      2. Ras, I believe that Julie Anne found an archive of the article yesterday. It is in the comments here.

   2. Ras, this quote is from Wilson’s book entitled Fidelity: How to Be a One-Woman Man.

3. My ex used this perceived “right” to violate me on a number of occasions to which he took great joy telling the custody judge of his right and his escapades. The judge quickly told him to “Shut up” because he was incriminating himself. When the judge awarded me full custody and revoked his rights to the children completely, ex said it was because I “got the judge on [my] side,” insinuating that I behaved in an illicit manner with the judge outside of the court room. How could a worldly judge take away a “godly” man’s rights? Ex even called me a sinner. He never saw that what he did to me through sexual assault or to the children through sexual harassment and borderline if not straight out molestation was criminal and evidence of a man totally lacking any experience of the indwelling of Christ Jesus. Any time either gender uses scripture to put chains on their spouse, well God is just not in that and does not give us His word to capture men’s souls, but to set them free.

   Thank you for your willingness to share this dicey post. I really appreciate this because it validates the feelings of a woman who has been raped that she was indeed right to hate it, and doesn’t have to deny her own emotions in order to accept that she “wanted it all along.” Uhhh, no…we don’t! Just because you can do something, like violate a person body, mind and soul, doesn’t mean you should.

   I often tried to get ex to see the truth of what he desired so deeply he was willing to beat us physically for, that he learned it from a sin-filled magazine in a fallen world. He countered that God made me for HIS personal enjoyment and as long as HE didn’t see it was sinful, then it was all good. Warped thinking. If I think murder is not a sin, then I can commit it as much as I want and it’s all good, right? “Well, no….”

   1. Laurie, I am sorry that this happened to you and your children. I find it wonderful that a man showed his true self to the judge. They are usually able to hide what they do and come off as the good guy. Yeah for this judge. And yes, his way of thinking was warped. God made you for His own enjoyment not for your husband’s.

4. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.

   I see caveman speak in this statement. Man pulls woman by the hair back to the cave while carrying a club. No choice, no caring about her feelings or gratification for her. It is not necessary for a woman to enjoy the experience as long as he says she did. Complete selfishness.

   Women, such as myself, have been told when you say you’re “not in the mood” to do it anyways, you’ll get in the mood. You’ll get in the mood soon after being verbally degrated, called names, beaten or whatever happened that given day. I see this as a part of what Wendell is saying. The domino effect of this one sentence causes so much harm. Rape is rape, it doesn’t matter how you get there. It is not enjoyable under any circumstances. It crushes the spirit of a human being. It causes death to a portion of who she is.

   Men who would use their authority in the church to promote this rubbish should be removed from their pedestal. Where is the church body that is allowing this in their midst?

5. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party.

   Except for the part where Paul explicitly states that it IS mutual and egalitarian:

   Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Cor. 7:3-5)

   Interesting how this passage that flagrantly teaches equality and mutual consent, is always twisted to mean that the husband can tell his wife to do whatever he wants and the wife can never say no to his advances.

   I’ll also add that there are segments of patriarchy that don’t believe marital rape is possible. They think that the general consent given in the marriage vows applies to everything that follows, i.e. the woman has just agreed to have sex with her husband no matter the circumstances. The really horrible part is that the blogger I saw arguing this point, was a woman. Sadly, this aligns perfectly with my experience that female patriarchal bloggers are actually more misogynistic than their male counterparts. For instance, the following quote also came from a female patriarchal blogger:

   “Love is not something a woman deserves from her husband, but something she earns through obedience.”

   When you apply this to the image of Christ and the church, this is basically teaching salvation by works. Add into this the idea of the husband as family priest, and you get a cocktail of heresy that’s just mind-boggingly bad. So, so many reasons that patriarchy is toxic to the core.

   1. “Love is not something a woman deserves from her husband, but something she earns through obedience.”

      She has given us so much to play with! Let’s have fun. 🙂 I’ll start.

      First, earning and deserving are the same thing. You deserve what you earn. Therefore, you cannot say a woman does not deserve something in one breath and then say she must earn it in the next.

      Second, where her expectation of love comes from is not her earning/deserving it, but his promise to do it. He said “love, honor, and cherish.” Therefore, she has the right to expect it on that basis. Just the same as we have the right to expect God to do what He says. Not because we’ve earned it but because He said it.

      Third, I would like to know then whether the husband must earn respect or if this standard only applies in one direction.

      Fourth, I wonder if this standard applies to the children in the home. Must they earn the parents’ love through obedience?

      That’s enough from me. Who else has something to add?

   2. “this aligns perfectly with my experience that female patriarchal bloggers are actually more misogynistic than their male counterparts.”

      Sadly, I also found this to be true.

   3. I can answer some of those BIT. Your second analogy really hit me. \

      Now for the third one. No, the husband does not have to earn anything! He is commanded to be respected in the Scriptures and that is the end of that. DO NOT even ask if there are exceptions, because there are none.

      The woman blogger also has it wrong when she speaks as she does about “love” concerning the woman, as the Scriptures likewise command that the husband love his wife and lay his life down for hers, and that is the end of that. Ooops, not so fast. This is indeed a one way street we have driven down now.

      Your fourth one goes something like this. The children are under the parents’ authority until the age of at least 20 for the sons and infinitely or until married for the daughters. In the meantime, daughters are not allowed, in the majority of these homes, to work outside the home. The theory here is why should a daughter go make money for another man, when she can stay at home, work for her father and help him make money to support his family. Now how can you argue with that theology?

      1. Yes, yes, IMB. But do the children have to earn their parents’ love by obedience? Or only the daughters? For practice….

      2. What love, BIT?

   4. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party.

      Except for the part where Paul explicitly states that it IS mutual and egalitarian.

      You hit a boundary and made a home run with that, Hester!

   5. Hester, I found it interesting that the phrase “having authority” there in 1 Cor 7 can be equated with authentien, which means “to lie carnally with.” Thinking of this verse in that light, I understand it to mean that neither husband or wife have the right to lie carnally with someone else, only their spouse. This take on it removes the “my turn, your turn” type of thought process that goes into it if we render the verse to mean “I have a sexual right to your body and you have to give it up to me when I say.”

   6. Sadly, this aligns perfectly with my experience that female patriarchal bloggers are actually more misogynistic than their male counterparts.

      I guess misery loves company.
      I will never get married again because there are too many men that use pornography. There are even minivans at the porn shops so you know they have kids and I’ve never seen a woman go in or out of one of those places.

6. Just had to share this.

   Douglas Wilson is known very well in the classical homeschool community. This article shows how doctrinal beliefs and teachings can permeate even the most intimate areas of each human life within a church.

   I am thankful this blog is dedicated to not only helping and supporting women who have been a victim of intimate partner violence, but, also unveiling teachings, that are found within certain types of churches, that make it easy for abusive men to hide within, and even be accepted/tolerated/left untouched, within those types of churches, to the extreme detriment of the women married to such men, and the children being raised by such fathers, and sadly to the detriment of every marriage within those churches.

   When you really think about it, the teachings of the roles of men and women in the church, from the pulpit, and in a church’s response to what they learn about abusive men, affect the views of the roles of men and women within all the homes, and therefore affect the relationships between those men and women, within their homes, in the most intimate private areas of their lives.

   As with many authors, we take what is good, and we wisely strive to throw out the chaff. But, we also must accept just how much our (his) doctrinal beliefs affect every area of our lives, and how a man as intelligent, and well read as Doug Wilson…can write such a statement about married sex. It reveals a lot about his belief system, and himself. I would never want to be under the teaching of a church leader, like that. Just imagine what a preacher with this belief system, would say to a woman who came to him for help, who even suggested that she is experiencing any form of depravity in her intimate relationship with her husband or who even hinted that there is ‘abuse’ from her husband…

   Sadly, I don’t have to imagine…I witnessed it first hand. Doctrine matters.

   1. FMDS – You said “As with many authors, we take what is good, and we wisely strive to throw out the chaff.” That certainly is true, and we must be wise and do it. However, in cases such as Wilson and others like him, the errors have gone on for so long that there is no wheat left. It’s all chaff. Poison chaff. At the root of the legalist’s mentality and theology, there is always a perverted and thus false gospel. Paul says in Galatians that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. That leaven is works righteousness, which Paul was addressing there. It is so foundational of a false teaching that if infects everything else such a person says and teaches. As someone else said in these comments, such books make very good fire-starter. We expelled all of Wilson’s books from our church library years ago when he wrote his book Reformed is Not Enough and we realized he was teaching Roman Catholicism. What makes Wilson tick? His false works-righteousness gospel. Paul says again in Galatians that such men are motivated by the desire to have us “make much of them” and to be popular with the religious powers that be in this world.

      1. I was called a “legalist” last week for saying that 12yos should not get married and have children. You meet all kinds I guess.

      2. Mr. Crippen, you said, “At the root of the legalist’s mentality and theology, there is always a perverted and thus false gospel.”

         My reply: I have learned this sad truth…the hard way. There is no love, grace and mercy in a legalist…only condemnation and judgement….and destruction. Walls are built against others, not torn down. Harm is done to others, not healing assistance given. Fingers pointed and blame given to others, versus, discipleship and grace.

         Lord deliver us from the legalist’s of this world! and draw us nearer to those teaching love grace and mercy and away from those that preach grace, but live law!

      3. “What makes Wilson tick? His false works-righteousness gospel.”

         Hence, the reason persecution arises against the true Christians, right within their pew. This is tough to know and remember when you have already been victimized, because we have long been trying to earn the approval of our abuser(s) and it leaves us vulnerable to these type of Wilsonian teachings. It is prevalent in some “c”hurches today, especially those who practice this whole husband/family worship thing. Satan is pretty sneaky here, but seems to have no trouble finding his following when it comes to grace vs. works. Thankfully, we can trust God to protect and deliver His own remnant from these false teachings.

      4. I cannot agree more! There is a similar expression “chew on the meat and spit out the bones”. It fails to recognise that what we are dealing with is poisoned meat. If we try to eat the perfectly good meat we cannot fail but consume the poison also. If the meat is contaminated it needs to be thrown out.

   2. A wife isn’t a husband’s personal prostitute.

7. I endured life for 20 years with a man whose fundamental philosophy towards sex was “I take what I want. My only responsibility is to please myself. Your responsibility is to please me, and enjoy whatever I do to you.” Any time he did not get what he wanted, “somebody” had to pay. He would either hurt me or hurt our children. The atmosphere in our home was filled with fear.

   It took me ten years to figure out that I was being abused, because he never actually hit me. He would push me or restrain me, and often forced me to have sex in spite of my protests, regardless of the reason. I could be in excruciating pain from a previous sexual act, or sick with a stomach bug. It didn’t matter, when he wanted sex, that was all that mattered.

   Yet he denies raping me. The law states that if the perpetrator has created an atmosphere where there is either an explicit or implicit threat of harm to the victim or others unless she complies with his wishes, it is rape, even if she is not attempting to fight him off. By this definition, my husband raped me thousands of times, since his sexual appetite required sex at least once every 24 hours, and twice a day on weekends. “Or else.”

   Most likely the seeds of his attitude came from porn, and the seeds were watered by the patriarchal attitude within the “c”hurch, as well as in the home school movement. The belief that women actually want to be forced, and in fact will end up enjoying it, clearly permeates his behavior. Hence, he not only believes, to his very core, that he had the right to sex every time he got the urge, but that if I wasn’t enjoying being raped there was something wrong with me.

   We have been separated for over 10 years now. He does not understand why I don’t want to get back together with him. He says I’m “cold.” He also maintains that I do not have Biblical grounds for divorce. I have not pursued a divorce because I am still afraid of him and what the consequences might be if I did.

   I went to the pastors of the churches we attended for help, and in every single instance, the pastors made excuses for my husband, and basically discounted what I was telling them. He was so charming and had everyone fooled. I never worked up the nerve to tell them about the ongoing rape. It wasn’t safe to do so.

   We even saw a Christian counselor together. My husband completely buffaloed him, until the day he asked about our sex life, and I told him the truth. My husband sat right there and listened to what I was saying with no change in his expression. He was calm, cool, and unaffected. The counselor heard me telling about the rape, the torture, the unreasonable demands, and looked back and forth between me and my husband. It dawned on him in those moments that he had been duped. How did he handle it? He suggested that we not come back. We didn’t. Once again, I was victimized by the very person I went to for help.

   Fortunately the pastor of the church I am currently attending has a good understanding of domestic violence, and recognizes my husband for the liar and hypocrite that he is. My husband does not live in the same state as me, so I only see him when he comes for a visit. If I do decide to pursue a divorce, my pastor will support that decision. This is the first time I have ever had a pastor who had a clue. It’s refreshing and empowering.

   I’m recovering from the PTSD that I suffer as a result of 20 years of living with sexual abuse in the context of domestic violence. I am aware that I will never fully recover, but I am on the road, and I am better than I was.

   1. Fortunately the pastor of the church I am currently attending has a good understanding of domestic violence, and recognizes my husband for the liar and hypocrite that he is. My husband does not live in the same state as me, so I only see him when he comes for a visit. If I do decide to pursue a divorce, my pastor will support that decision. This is the first time I have ever had a pastor who had a clue. It’s refreshing and empowering.

      Thank God for this.

      I am finding more and more how important it is for the leadership of churches to get this because they are the ones who wield spiritual power. When it is wielded in the favor of the victim is it indeed refreshing and empowering, as it should be. When it is either kept under wraps in an attempt at neutrality, used to deliberately support the abuser, or used to defend marriage, the power that could have helped only harms instead.

      Thank God your pastor gets it, StrongerNow. I pray for the eyes of more pastors and counselors and other leaders to be opened and their hearts directed to support the victims.

   2. StrongerNow -First, I just want to say, I am so sorry for what you have experienced as a woman, who loved a man, hoped for joy and happiness with that man, and he gave you unhappiness, and robbed you of your hope in men as loving protectors who do good and not do harm to the weaker vessels they are charged to protect and love. May God bless you with emotional and spiritual healing.

      In regard to his pornography addiction that you note in your experience with him:

      I have always found it shocking that church people and church leaders are so quick to quote verses for why a woman ‘cannot’ divorce her husband, when there is a verse that is very hard to MIS-understand about ‘why she CAN.’

      “Matthew 5:28
      But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

      He ‘hath’ already committed adultery…time and again.

      Some will say…’well if you used that verse, every wife has a legitimate reason to divorce her husband….” Well, I am raising three sons, to NOT be addicted to pornography…and though they live in a culture that has Porn adds on billboards, and every commercial between shows, it is ‘their obligation’ before God, to not ‘seek’ nudity of other women for the purpose of lust, and gratification. If they do, unrepentantly, before marriage, they are guilty of harming their future, relationships by corrupting their minds, toward women. We are raising them to respect women, and honor them. If they reject that teaching, and seek Pornography, after marriage, ‘they’ are committing adultery against their wives, and must accept the consequences. Their wives should not have to live a life with a husband and father, who justifies his sin, over and over again, in his private life with them, as if it is normal and acceptable to bring the corruption of the porn industry into their marital bed. It ‘is’ abuse of that woman.

      When you have Christian female writers telling women that the bedroom is where you turn on the ‘bad girl’ or you choose the porn industry look, in your lingerie — what are women to do, but, to ‘think’ they are suppose to ‘be bad’ or tolerate porn addiction’s actions, that of course leaches into their bedrooms with the ‘look’ and ‘behavior’ a ‘corrupted’ man desires? Women need to be taught, by older women, and from the pulpit, that sexuality is actually a beautiful thing before God and that God made men able to be fully satisfied in ‘the wife of his youth’ (Malachi 215) and ‘in her breasts’ (Proverbs 5:19) in a loving, mutually giving, (I Cor. 7:5) healthy marital sex relationship. Only sin corrupts the marital bed.

      Your husband corrupted the marriage, and defiled the marriage bed, and is guilty of adultery according to Matthew 5:28- I hope you can take some form of comfort in that.

      1. When I told the pastor of one church about the rape and the porn addiction, he flat out told me that it was not grounds for divorce. And that pastor asked me if I had orgasms while being raped. It was only because I had been trained to tolerate such verbal abuse that I did not walk straight out of his office immediately,

         I now believe (because of other evidence) that this pastor was himself a porn addict. What a travesty.

      2. That pastor may well have been unwittingly proving the point. If he really understood rape and true human sexuality, he would not have asked such a (excuse me here) dumb question!

      3. StrongerNow, I can think of no other reason that a pastor would ask such a question. He was no different than your husband.

      4. I am so sorry. That pastor should be exposed. I pray that he does. That is just awful. You know, that physiological reaction can become an acute problem when one has been raped. One cannot help it. Even a child that gets, you know, has problems from that. That is just horrendous for that pastor to say that. I am appalled. I feel for you. I am so sad. I can’t get that out of my mind. I pray you get healed.

         I don’t even see why a pastor should have that authority to say somebody can’t divorce. Porn addiction means that the person is constantly committing adultery in their heart. To me adultery is adultery especially if it’s a continuing thing.

      5. “that pastor asked me if I had orgasms while being raped”
         How ridiculous. What has that got to do with anything? Suppose a man would overpower the pastor and force him into sex acts – I am sure the pastor would not find it any more okay as long as the guy masturbates him and gives him an orgasm.

   3. StrongerNow, I have been through sexual abuse and rape since being a small child. Reading your story makes me feel like I have nothing to complain about. I can’t imagine having to endure this every day or have my children abused if I didn’t comply. My heart goes out to you and my prayers as well. I can’t imagine a counselor turning you away without so much as a, “I am not qualified, here’s the name of someone….” I am so glad you have found a caring pastor and hope that if you choose to divorce that you will be given away to do so safely.

8. I’m (thankfully) not at all familiar with Doug Wilson, but his comment here regarding the male conquerer and the female conquered seems to illustrate a worrying (and embarrassing) lack of understanding of women; of heterosexual union; of sexual desire; of the bible and biblical teaching on heterosexual union; of the nature of Jesus Christ; of moral responsibility to those, male or female, who would subscribe to his blog/opinions. He expresses an opinion that reduces men to being merely farmers and worse, women to being their farm, full of fertile soil to be owned, ploughed and manipulated by the farmer as he sees fit, and as she ‘accepts’. His words are utterly un-christian, un-Christ-like, offensive, in-humane and dangerous. I will now look him up as I’d be interested to know his opinions on the relationship between adult and child.

   1. This! yes!
      I always think these guys should be embarassed by their lack of understanding of female anatomy – God MADE the female body! And we have a sexual organ that has little to do with reproduction and everything to do with pleasure, and isn’t stimulated by rape or force or “conquering”. These guys make themselves literally look like PIGS!
      {as a fun aside, my ex abuser asked me after the birth of one of our kids – “so exactly how many holes do you have down there?” — an indication of his prowess I’m sure. lol Considering that he was steeped in pornography, I can’t figure out how he was so clueless???}

      1. Gasp — at that question from Katy’s ex. The myriads of ways these abusers belittle their victims still amazes me.

         A normal adult couldn’t script that question if they pondered for a week. But an abuser can come up with it in an instant.

      2. my ex abuser asked me after the birth of one of our kids – “so exactly how many holes do you have down there?”

         infinite headdesk

         I’d expect that question of a 12 yo trolling on YahooAnswers. Not of a fully grown adult in real life.

9. I realized that I had been indoctrinated to never say no to my husband. By writings I was persuaded to give myself selflessly to my husband but he became spoiled rotten. And as reality set in I realized Jesus suffered for less than a day. I felt like if this continues it’s going to be a lifetime and it is enabling him to sin against me over and over again. I realized even though I was praying for strength to continue loving selflessly, if it indeed was the bitter cup I was supposed to drink,
   I was even fasting for clarity, God didn’t really replenish me with more love, instead he helped me speak up that the “Christmas present” thing was not working out for me. He accepted it like a disappointed child but later realized and verbally acknowledged his selfishness. Couple years later I became pregnant and my libido went through the roof but he didn’t really want to help me out with that throughout most of the pregnancy.

   It goes back to the article. It’s the mentality of the porn industry – very selfish and barbaric, callous and sadistic. And to have men convinced to be this way and affirmed in the name of godliness is even sicker.

10. Wow, Wendell, what a great and much needed article. To hear it form your perspective from someone who was into porn gives it great credibility, too.

    I’m glad someone mentioned the original article. I’ve been meaning to look it up for a while (it was yanked down probably a week after it was published). The article by Jared Wilson struck a nerve with many and created a media frenzy of colossal proportions.

    I was able to track down the original article, including comments. I would love to see ACFJ folks analyze some of the comments and the defensive responses by both Wilsons. Yes, Doug Wilson, did indeed visit the blog and defended himself.

    Ok, here is the original post. I wish I would have taken a screen shot. I thought there were more than 125 comments: The Polluted Waters of 50 Shades of Grey, Etc. [Internet Archive link] :::::trigger alert::::::

    And here is a follow-up article by Jared Wilson after he was stunned at the negative response:
    Shades Of Outrage [Internet Archive link] (FYI – Barb and Jeff – I now have the screenshots of these should they vanish from the Wayback Machine.)

    1. Thanks Julie Ann. What I find interesting in Jared Wilson’s response to the critics is that he does not address the fact that Doug Wilson could have phrased and explained his meaning better in the original work. If, as he asserts, all of us misunderstood Wilson’s words, how much more so can someone, who has a desire to dominate and force wives into sexual acts, also misinterpret the statements to support their view? The patriarchy movement in general and Wilson’s own teachings in particular, already support the idea of male dominance over women, so it is not too much of a stretch to assume he believes that is true in the bedroom, and then lends credence to the common interpretation of his quote. The context does not help much either.

       If Jared and Doug Wilson really wished to stick by their comments, they would have not deleted the post and either edited it to clarify or written a better clarification. As it is, they inferred that those who were disagreeing with them could not understand the English language and were thus inferior to them intellectually. The fact they felt they had to remove the posts is telling.

       1. Wilson claims to be “misunderstood” pretty frequently. Personally I’ve never read anything by him that didn’t have at least one or two sentences in it that I seriously could not understand at all. I suspect most of them are abortive jokes that sound funny in his head but either A) don’t come out right when he writes them, or B) really are only funny to him. This one, however, was just bad and wrong all around and he doesn’t seem to have intended it humorously. I seem to recall one of his outs was that his critics had a “tin ear for poetic language” or something like that (the poetic language being the conquering vs. surrendering verbs at the end).

          In other words, Wilson’s bizarre. And BTW, did you know that he had a hand in marrying off a pedophile to a 22yo young woman? Look up Steven Sitler and you’ll find all the background.

       2. Hester – Yes, I heard about that matchup with a pervert orchestrated by Wilson. One of the common traits of these kind of guys is something you alluded to here. They claim all the time that we are not understanding them properly. Translated: “I am so far above you intellectually that you cannot grasp my thoughts.” My translation: “You are either 1) such a pathetic writer/teacher that you cannot speak in intelligible language, or 2) You intentionally use studied ambiguity and equivocation so that you can deny that you said what you in fact said.”

       3. One of the techniques of verbal abuse is verbal abuse disguised as a joke (see Patricia Evans’ The Verbally Abusive Relationship.) In this technique the abuser makes an abusive remark to the victim and when the victim complains, the abuser says “Can’t you take a joke?”

          Wilson seems to have a penchant for verbal abuse disguised as poetry.

          but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .

       4. Barb, X has the verbally abusive joke down to an art form. He would tell everyone that I had no sense of humor. After a while, I suppose I didn’t.

       5. If Jared and Doug Wilson really wished to stick by their comments, they would have not deleted the post and either edited it to clarify or written a better clarification. As it is, they inferred that those who were disagreeing with them could not understand the English language and were thus inferior to them intellectually. The fact they felt they had to remove the posts is telling.

          That’s because they really believe the words that they wrote. They do not see them in any way offensive.

          I have never been raped, but as I read the article for the first time (without even reading the comments), I had the strangest physical sensation in my body that I had never experienced before. Reading it felt suffocating and it really messed with my head emotionally. The words were very triggering to women – especially those who have been sexually violated.

          To argue and defend themselves after such a strong outcry from women and men showed a complete lack of sensitivity and understanding. Who were they thinking about – – -others or themselves?

          I still can’t believe this was on display for all. I’m glad that we have the old articles so we can see how these guys think and can identify the behavior. It is helpful for those who have come from abusive backgrounds to be able to see it once removed from them. It’s a great teaching tool.

       6. One of the techniques of verbal abuse is verbal abuse disguised as a joke

          Ah, yes…my grandfather. In fact pretty much everyone on my dad’s side of the family.

    2. JA I read through the links from your post. The response that got to me was referring conquering with the Song of Solomon. I am currently reading this book along with commentaries as I go along. I have read it many times before, but find after recently leaving an abusive marriage it is much more meaningful to me. So far I have seen no connection between conquering and the Song of Solomon. I see mutual love and respect, desire, committment. No where in this book do I see where Solomon conquered his bride on the wedding night. Conquering refers to war, to force and win over an enemy. No woman wants to be thought of as theenemy by her husband. Wilson’s worders are harmful. If anyone, can show me otherwise in this book, I would certainly like to see it.

11. This is disgusting that so many modern ‘theologians’ are writing books that are really nothing more than pornography and passing them off as Christian books. What a plague of the modern age! I notice this type of indecency in more and more ‘spiritual’ books and discussions to the point that it might as well be expected should you read books from any number of the Gospel Coalition members. It would be interesting to add up the times that Piper uses the word intercourse or orgasm in his ‘classic’ This Momentary Marriage and compare those totals to some trashy novel. I would be willing to expect that Piper’s book would have just as many references.

    Really, was it necessary for these guys to get a theological degree to give us porn doctrine? How arrogant for them to think that they hold some special sexual knowledge that they should even be broadcasting their perverted ideas under the guise of ‘pastoring’. I am still sickened by the mental images that Piper paints in his marriage book. How did the church get by all these years without this type of insight? Faithful teachers focus on Christ and beautiful biblical doctrine that is useful for building up the church. Porn theology is satanic and destructive. Time to get out the good old books. And I agree, use these rotten ones for kindling.

    1. Really, was it necessary for these guys to get a theological degree to give us porn doctrine? How arrogant for them to think that they hold some special sexual knowledge that they should even be broadcasting their perverted ideas under the guise of ‘pastoring’.

       Sex is not an uncommon topic at Doug Wilson’s site. Keep in mind, this is the same pastor who talked a judge into reducing a pedophile’s sentence. He later arranged a young lady in his church to marry this pedophile. Keep in mind, this pedophile is never to be around children. How’s that going to work when she gets pregnant? This is well documented, including court documents, on the internet.

       I am still sickened by the mental images that Piper paints in his marriage book. How did the church get by all these years without this type of insight? Faithful teachers focus on Christ and beautiful biblical doctrine that is useful for building up the church. Porn theology is satanic and destructive. Time to get out the good old books. And I agree, use these rotten ones for kindling.

       In Wilson’s quote, he puts down an “egalitarian pleasure party,” yet in Song of Solomon, we read about a mutual pleasure party – both talking about each other using descriptive animals, towers, food adjectives. It is a beautiful poem of love between husband/wife. We read of no domination or subservient roles in that pleasure party. I feel sorry for Wilson’s wife.

       PS Don’t throw out those books. Bloggers need those to expose that bad stuff.

    2. Thepersistentwidow,

       This is disgusting that so many modern ‘theologians’ are writing books that are really nothing more than pornography and passing them off as Christian books.

       Thanks for the tip off, won’t be reading it. What disturbs me is I heard a recent advertisement / sound bite on Running to Win, promoting John Piper. I just don’t get the feeling he is sincere when it comes to “warning” men off of porn.

12. I’ll tell you what this description by Wilson reminds me of…

    The ANIMAL kingdom!! Anyone who has lived on a farm or done any small-scale homesteading will know what I’m talking about. This is a mating act being described !! not an act of intimacy and spiritual/emotional oneness that the marital union between man and woman is supposed to be. This reminds me particularly of how a proud cocky rooster acts. He doesn’t care if he injures the hen (and often does) — it’s all about the conquest and planting of the seed… Sorry to be so graphic, but it is disgusting to think that this mindset is actually being listened to and accepted by some in the Christian community. Sigh…

    1. Yeah. What’s up with Wilson and Michael Pearl talking about people like we’re animals?

       1. Doug Wilson is very involved with Steve Wilkins, both have some sort of obsession with the Southern Confederacy and have been accused of being racist, if you read their book “Black and Tan” it’s pretty obvious that Wilson has hatred for anyone that doesn’t agree with him. I think Wilson is the animal here and it’s obviously a wolf.

       2. Please don’t insult any animal by comparing these people to them. They are boils on face of humanity.

       3. Dan – Good point! I would rather hang out my two labs anyday!

    2. HisEzer – Yep. We have had to sentence a number of roosters to the crock pot for those very behaviors. They didn’t taste very good either.

13. ” In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”

    I don’t know who Doug Wilson is, but I feel violated just reading those three sentences!

14. Haha! There are a lot of word-plays available in your reply …. ( I’m thinking of “crock” and “crack-pot”…. and how rotten meat [teaching] needs to be spewed out …. !)

    1. HisEzer, Well done!!

15. I am realising more and more that I am sexually abused in my marriage. To keep him happy I give him sex. He is not deprived but still complains. Over the years and I stiil do, I pray God will help me to be sexual when its the last thing ive wanted to do. I am so ashamed of things he has done to me when my request has been no. He has made me bleed at times. He mentions this fantasy nearly everytime of a person watching us whether it be a person in a porn shop, another woman, etc. It sickens me to my gut and because of shame I find this so hard to talk about.
    For many years I have gone by scripture, my body is not my own.

    1. Oh Loves6. . . . how awful. He has, without doubt, sexually abused you. Making you bleed when you said No — can you put the word ‘rape’ to that? because that’s what it is. And sharing that fantasy that sickens you is certainly sexual abuse because you have made it clear that it is unwelcome.

       1. After making this comment the other day I became so exhausted I slept for 12 hours .. obviously a trigger.
          I have spoken to my husband about different acts, as hard as it has been, for a few months it didn’t happen and then for some reason he just does. I have also asked him not to say the things he does. He as stopped for a period of time but then says it. I have said why..why so you do it… the reply is it is for my benefit! ! Every time it happens I become very withdrawn. I feel like im married to different persons… one nice. .one angry..one a sex fanatic. ..one charming etc…sounds like a pyshco?
          Im in disbelief that after being Christians for many years im not seeing change in him.
          My kids are constantly saying dad loves you so much…. but my little girl said to me today… do you love daddy? People that love each other shouldnt argue like you and dad do… she is under 10 years old.

    2. loves6, Your husband is exploiting his marital rights. There should be 3 in the marital bed. You, your husband and God. God is with us everywhere. Any other person being suggested to be present is sexually and emotionally abusing you. The idea makes you sick. Your body not being your own has limits. Making you bleed is harmful and cruel. The shame in this situation is not yours. You have done nothing wrong. You are being forced into things that you find unseemly. Your husband should let your No be No.

       1. Yes he is and I really dont know what to do…talking to him hasnt worked. My no is no for a while but dosent last. My PTSD is constantly triggered by him. A sad fact. ..im so thankful I have God in my life

    3. I am so sorry loves6. I burn for you. I was abused in bed but not raped. I have said no and he obeyed but I endured a lot because I thought I was supposed to. There were times when I had it with his complaints and I told him to get himself a prostitute because I can’t take any more pain and then deal with his complaints. I told him but don’t expect me to sleep with you ever again after. That shut him up but I have had blood discharge later when we were at church because of his greedy kinkiness. Can you safely say no? I will be praying your husband sees his sin. This is not your fault. Shame on him.

       1. I have said to my husband it would be better if he had a mistress… or a prostitute because I just cannot be what he wants me to be. This issue is bigger than I’ve really realised. What is so heartbreaking is I was abused as a young girl for years. He knows my trauma but he soes not respect it…he complains about being a victim of my past.

16. One of the techniques of verbal abuse is verbal abuse disguised as a joke (see Patricia Evans’ The Verbally Abusive Relationship.) In this technique the abuser makes an abusive remark to the victim and when the victim complains, the abuser says “Can’t you take a joke?”

    Barb, I also couldn’t tolerate his jokes. Then he’d get mad at me and say “fine!…. I’m just not going to joke with you anymore.” “Pffff! GOOD! I hope you NEVER JOKE AGAIN!!!” And I meant it. I can’t tolerate insults disguised as jokes.

17. I get a news letter from WebMD that is suppose to be about Women’s Health and at my age I need all the help I can get. I have found that most of it is smut. Last week there was an article written by a female Dr. who writes about “women’s health” regarding the 10 top women’s sexual fantasies. Right at the top was being ravaged or raped. She was not saying that women actually wanted it to happen it was a fantasy. How many men read that article and said, “oh yah, this is what she wants”? I also had to wonder, who were these women that would asked that question and gave that answer.

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